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1/98

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Official - Subject to Final Review

I N THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNI TED STATES- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

ABI GAI L NOEL FI SHER,

Pet i t i oner

:

: No. 11- 345

v. :

UNI VERSI TY OF TEXAS AT AUSTI N,

ET AL.

:

:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x

Washi ngt on, D. C.

Wednesday, Oct ober 10, 2012

The above- ent i t l ed mat t er came on f or oral

argument bef ore t he Supreme Cour t of t he Uni t ed Stat es

at 11: 04 a. m.

APPEARANCES:

BERT W. REI N, ESQ. , Washi ngt on, D. C. ; on behal f of

Pet i t i oner .

GREGORY G. GARRE, ESQ. , Washi ngt on, D. C. ; on behal f of

Respondent s.

DONALD B. VERRI LLI , J R. , ESQ. , Sol i ci t or Gener al ,

Depar t ment of J ust i ce, Washi ngt on, D. C. ; f or Uni t ed

St at es, as ami cus cur i ae, suppor t i ng Respondent s.

1Alderson Reporting Company


2/98

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C O N T E N T SORAL ARGUMENT OF PAGE

BERT W. REI N, ESQ.

On behal f of t he Pet i t i oner 3

ORAL ARGUMENT OF

GREGORY G. GARRE, ESQ.

On behal f of t he Respondent s 31

ORAL ARGUMENT OF

DONALD B. VERRI LLI , J R. , ESQ

For Uni t ed St at es, as ami cus cur i ae, 59

suppor t i ng t he Respondent s

REBUTTAL ARGUMENT OF

BERT W. REI N, ESQ.

On behal f of t he Pet i t i oner 72

2Alderson Reporting Company


3/98

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P R O C E E D I N G S

( 11: 04 a. m. )

MR. REI N: Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce, and may i t

pl ease t he Cour t - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Wel l , I get t o say

t hat t hi s i s Case Number 11- 345, Fi sher agai nst t he

Uni ver si t y of Texas at Aust i n. And you get t o say - -

ORAL ARGUMENT OF BERT W. REI N

ON BEHALF OF THE PETI TI ONER

MR. REI N: Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce, Mr . - -

Gener al Sut er t r ai ned me t oo wel l .

Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce, and member s of t he Cour t ,

and may i t pl ease t he Cour t :

The cent r al i ssue her e i s whet her t he

Uni ver si t y of Texas at Aust i n can car r y i t s bur den

appr ovi ng t hat i t s use of r ace as an admi ssi ons- pl us

f act or i n t he consequent deni al of equal t r eat ment ,

whi ch i s t he cent r al mandat e of t he Equal Pr ot ect i on

Cl ause, t o Abi gai l Fi sher met t he t wo t est s of st r i ct

scr ut i ny whi ch ar e appl i cabl e.

Fi r st - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Mr . Rei n, bef or e we get

t o t hat , because t he Cour t i s supposed t o r ai se i t on

i t s own, t he quest i on of - - of st andi ng. The i nj ur y - -

i f t he i nj ur y i s r ej ect i on by t he Uni ver si t y of Texas,3

Alderson Reporting Company


4/98

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and t he answer i s, no mat t er what , t hi s per son woul d not

have been accept ed, t hen how i s t he i nj ur y caused by t he

af f i r mat i ve act i on pr ogr am?

MR. REI N: Wel l , J ust i ce Gi nsbur g, t he f i r st

i nj ur y t hat was bef or e the Cour t was t he use of a syst em

whi ch deni ed equal t r eat ment . I t was a Const i t ut i onal

i nj ur y, and par t of t he damage cl ai m was premi sed

di r ect l y on t he Const i t ut i onal i ssue.

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: How do you get past

Texas v. Lesage wi t h t hat i nj ury - -

MR. REI N: Lesage - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: - - whi ch says t hat mer e

use of r ace i s not cogni zabl e i nj ur y suf f i ci ent f or

st andi ng.

MR. REI N: Lesage was l i t i gat ed on i t s

mer i t s, and t he quest i on was whet her Lesage coul d car r y

hi s case when - - on summar y j udgment , when i t was

apparent t hat hi s compl ai nt , whi ch was t hat he was

deni ed access t o t he gr aduat e pr ogr am at t he Uni ver si t y

of Texas, was not sust ai nabl e.

As I sai d - - and t her e ar e sever al f act or s

i n t hi s case t hat ar e qui t e di f f er ent . Fi r st , t her e i s

a Const i t ut i onal i nj ur y as such, and t he Cour t has

r ecogni zed i t .

Second, t he f act pr emi se, she coul d not have4



5/98

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been al l owed i n under any ci r cumst ance, was never t est ed

bel ow, wasn' t r ai sed bel ow. I t comes up i n a f oot note

i n - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Can I go t o another

si de? She' s gr aduated.

MR. REI N: Corr ect .

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: She di scl ai med t he

desi r e, af t er her appl i cat i on, t o go t o t he school at

al l . She was per mi t t ed t o appl y f or t he summer pr ogr am

and get i n aut omat i cal l y, and she di dn' t , cor r ect ?

MR. REI N: No, t hat ' s not cor r ect ,

Your Honor . She - - she was not aut omat i cal l y admi t t ed.

She was consi dered f or t he summer progr am and r ej ect ed.

You ar e t al ki ng about t he CAP pr ogr am, where

she coul d have at t ended a di f f er ent uni ver si t y i n t he

Texas syst em, and had she been abl e t o achi eve - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: But she' s graduat ed.

MR. REI N: She has graduat ed.

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: I nj unct i ve r el i ef , she' s

not goi ng t o get . So what measur e of damages wi l l she

get or wi l l she be ent i t l ed t o?

MR. REI N: Wel l , t hat i ssue, of cour se, i s

bi f ur cat ed, and we' ve r eser ved t he abi l i t y t o - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: But you have t o cl ai m an

i nj ur y. So what ' s t he i nj ur y - -5



6/98

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MR. REI N: Wel l - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: - - t hat you' r e cl ai mi ng

t hat woul d sust ai n a cl ai m of damages?

MR. REI N: The - - t he deni al of her r i ght t o

equal t r eat ment i s a Const i t ut i onal i nj ur y i n and of

i t sel f , and we had cl ai med cer t ai n damages on t hat .

We - - we st ar t ed the case bef ore i t was cl ear whet her

she woul d or woul dn' t be admi t t ed.

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: You st i l l haven' t

answered how Lesage get s away f r om t hat - -

MR. REI N: Wel l , i f t her e' s - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: - - but i f t here' s a - -

gi ve me anot her - -

MR. REI N: Wel l , I t hi nk - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: - - damages quest i on.

MR. REI N: On t he - - i f we t hen, on r emand,

were t o asser t damages cont i ngent upon t he f act t hat she

shoul d have been admi t t ed t o UT and was not admi t t ed, we

woul d t hen have t o pr ove t hat , but f or t he use of r ace,

she woul d be admi t t ed. That ' s the t hr ust of Lesage.

Whet her we can pr ove i t or can' t pr ove i t i s

somet hi ng you can' t t el l on t hi s r ecor d. I t ' s mer el y

asser t ed. And I woul d poi nt out t hat Texas sai d bel ow,

t her e was no way t o det er mi ne t hat i ssue wi t hout - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: What damages - -6



7/98

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J USTI CE SCALI A: We' ve had cases i nvol vi ng

al l eged di scri mi nat i on i n st at e - - st at e cont r act i ng.

And we haven' t r equi r ed t he person who was di scr i mi nat ed

agai nst because of r ace t o pr ove t hat he woul d have

got t en t he cont r act other wi se, have we?

MR. REI N: No, si r .

J USTI CE SCALI A: I t ' s - - i t ' s been enough

t hat t her e was a deni al of equal pr ot ect i on.

MR. REI N: That i s our cor r ect , and t hat i s

our f i r st pr emi se. And I woul d say t hat t he same i ssue

was rai sed i n Bakke. And i n Bakke, t he cont ent i on was

he coul dn' t have got t en i nt o the medi cal school ;

t her ef or e, he has no case. The Cour t sai d, i n f oot not e

14 t o J ust i ce Powel l ' s opi ni on, t hat ' s a mat t er of

mer i t s; i t i s not a mat t er of st andi ng.

I t hi nk i n - - i n Par ent s I nvol ved, t he same

t ype of cont ent i on was made wi t h r espect t o t he

Loui svi l l e cl ass pl ai nt i f f s, whose son had been admi t t ed

t o the school of hi s choi ce, and t he Cour t sai d damages

are enough t o sust ai n st andi ng. There i s a l i ve damages

cl ai m her e, and I don' t t hi nk t her e i s a quest i on of

st andi ng.

J USTI CE SCALI A: Her cl ai m i s not

necessar i l y t hat she woul d have been - - woul d have been

admi t t ed, but t hat she was deni ed a f ai r chance i n t he7



8/98

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admi ssi on l ot t er y. J ust as when a per son i s deni ed

par t i ci pat i on i n t he cont r act i ng l ot t er y, he has

suf f er ed an i nj ur y.

MR. REI N: Yes, J ust i ce Scal i a, I agr ee wi t h

t hat .

J USTI CE BREYER: I f you ar e goi ng t o - - t o

t he mer i t s, I want t o know whether you want us t o - - or

ar e aski ng us t o over r ul e Gr ut t er . Gr ut t er sai d i t

woul d be good l aw f or at l east 25 years. And I know

t hat t i me f l i es, but I t hi nk onl y ni ne of t hose year s

have passed.

( Laught er . )

J USTI CE BREYER: And so, are you? And, i f

so, why over r ul e a case i nto whi ch so much t hought and

ef f or t went and so many peopl e acr oss t he count r y have

depended on?

MR. REI N: J ust i ce Br eyer , we have sai d,

ver y car ef ul l y, we wer e not t r yi ng t o change t he Cour t ' s

di sposi t i on of t he i ssue i n Gr ut t er . Coul d t her e be a

l egi t i mat e - - a compel l i ng i nt er est i n - - i n movi ng - -

i n usi ng r ace t o est abl i sh a di ver se cl ass.

What - - t he pr obl em t hat we' ve encount er ed

t hr oughout t he case i s t her e ar e varyi ng under st andi ngs,

not of t he l egi t i macy of t he i nt er est , but how you get

t her e; i s i t necessary t o use r ace t o achi eve t hat8



9/98

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i nt er est ; what does a cr i t i cal mass - -

J USTI CE BREYER: So your quest i on i s

whet her - - your poi nt i s does your case sat i sf y Gr ut t er ?

I s t hat what you' r e ar gui ng?

MR. REI N: We l i t i gat ed i t on t hat basi s,

yes.

J USTI CE BREYER: Wel l , how do you want t o

ar gue i t r i ght now i n t he next t en mi nut es? I ' m

i nt er est ed because I have a ver y shor t t i me t o get my

quest i on out , and I need t o know how you ar e goi ng t o

ar gue i t .

MR. REI N: Wel l , J ust i ce Br eyer , our

ar gument i s we can sat i sf y Gr ut t er i f i t ' s pr oper l y

r ead. What we' ve seen - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: May I ask you on t hat

speci f i cal l y, l et ' s t ake away the 10 per cent sol ut i on.

Suppose t he onl y pl an wer e the one t hat i s bef ore the

Cour t now, no 10 per cent . Thi s i s t he excl usi ve way

t hat t he Uni ver si t y i s at t empt i ng t o i ncrease mi nor i t y

enr ol l ment .

Then, i f we had no 10 per cent sol ut i on,

under Gr ut t er , woul d t hi s pl an be accept abl e?

MR. REI N: Wel l , I t hi nk t hat t her e woul d be

f l aws under Gr ut t er , even i f you assumed away somethi ng

t hat can' t be assumed away because i t i s a mat t er of9



10/98

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Texas l aw, t hat i s, t here i s a t op 10 percent program,

and t hat - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Wel l , t hen t he - - t he

quest i on i s can you have bot h? But i t seems t o me t hat

t hi s pr ogr am i s cer t ai nl y no mor e aggr essi ve t han t he

one i n - - i n Gr ut t er ; i t ' s mor e - - i n f act , mor e modest .

MR. REI N: Wel l , I don' t agr ee wi t h t hat ,

and l et me expl ai n why.

I n or der t o sat i sf y Gr ut t er , you f i r st have

t o say t hat you ar e not j ust usi ng r ace gr at ui t ousl y,

but i t i s i n t he i nt er est of pr oduci ng a cri t i cal mass

of ot her wi se under r epr esent ed st udent s. And so t o - - t o

be wi t hi n Gr ut t er f r amewor k, t he f i r st quest i on i s,

absent t he use of r ace, woul d we be generat i ng a

cri t i cal mass?

To answer t hat quest i on, you st ar t - - you' ve

got t o exami ne i n cont ext t he so- cal l ed sof t f act or s

t hat ar e i n Gr ut t er - - you know, ar e - - i s t her e an

i sol at i on on campus? Do members of mi nor i t y f eel t hat

t hey cannot speak out ?

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: The one soci al st udi es

t hat t hi s Uni ver si t y di d sai d t hat mi nor i t y st udent s,

over whel mi ngl y, even wi t h t he number s t hey have now, are

f eel i ng i sol at ed. So what do - - why i sn' t t hat even

under your t est ?10



11/98

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We can go back t o whet her subst ant i al

evi dence i s adequat e, i s necessary, or not . Why does

t hei r t est f ai l ?

MR. REI N: Wel l , t he survey was - - a r andom

sur vey. I t ' s not r epor t ed i n any syst emat i c way. They

evi dent l y i nt er vi ewed st udent s. And i t was al l about

cl assr oom i sol at i on. I t wasn' t about - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: Was i t - - was i t done

bef or e or af t er t hey announced t he deci si on t o

r ei nst i t ut e r aci al quot as?

MR. REI N: I t was done af t er

Presi dent Faul kner had made t he decl arat i on t hey were

goi ng t o do i t . I t was done bef or e - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: Whi ch came al most

i mmedi at el y af t er our deci si on on Gr ut t er .

MR. REI N: On t he - - I bel i eve, on t he same

day.

J USTI CE SCALI A: And by t he way, do you

t hi nk that Gr ut t er - - t hi s goes t o J ust i ce Br eyer ' s

quest i on - - do you t hi nk t hat Gr ut t er hel d t hat t her e i s

no mor e af f i r mat i ve act i on i n hi gher educat i on af t er

2028?

MR. REI N: No, I don' t .

J USTI CE SCALI A: Was t hat t he hol di ng of

Gr ut t er ?11



12/98

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MR. REI N: That was not - - t hat was - -

J USTI CE BREYER: I agree i t mi ght , but I

want t o get t o t he quest i on, see, what I ' m t r yi ng t o

pi npoi nt , because we have such a l i mi t ed t i me, and t o

me, t he one t hi ng I want t o pi npoi nt , si nce you' r e

ar gui ng on t hat t hi s sat i sf i es Gr ut t er , i f pr oper l y

under st ood, as you say t hat . I n l ooki ng up, we have a

t wo- cour t r ul e.

And t wo cour t s have f ound, i t seems t o me,

t hat her e, t her e i s a cer t ai n - - t her e i s no quot a. I t

i s i ndi vi dual i zed. I t i s t i me l i mi t ed. I t was adopt ed

af t er t he consi der at i on of r ace- neut r al means. Each

appl i cant r ecei ves i ndi vi dual consi der at i on, and r ace

di d not become t he pr edomi nant f act or .

So I t ake t hose as a gi ven. And t hen I want

t o know what pr eci sel y i t i s t hat Gr ut t er r equi r ed i n

your opi ni on t hat makes t hi s di f f er ent f r om Gr ut t er , i n

t hat i t was not sat i sf i ed her e? The ones I l i st ed, t wo

court s say are t he same. So maybe t her e' s some ot her s.

MR. REI N: I ' m not sur e we agr ee wi t h t hose

cour t s i n t hei r met hod of anal ysi s.

J USTI CE BREYER: Okay. But we have a r ul e

t hat i f t wo cour t s say i t , we' r e ver y r el uct ant , on

somet hi ng connect ed wi t h f act s, t o over t ur n i t , so - - so

t hat ' s why I ment i on t hat .12



13/98

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MR. REI N: And - - par t i cul ar l y i n t he case

of consi der i ng al t er nat i ves t hat have wor ked about as

wel l , I t hi nk t hat ' s a l egal quest i on t hi s Cour t i s f r ee

t o act on.

J USTI CE SCALI A: Okay. Ther e are f act s, and

t her e ar e f act s, ar en' t t her e?

MR. REI N: So i f I mi ght t r y t o answer your

quest i on, t her e was no ef f or t i n t hi s case t o est abl i sh

a - - even a wor ki ng t ar get f or cr i t i cal mass. They

si mpl y i gnor ed i t . They j ust used wor ds, and t hey sai d,

we' ve got t o do mor e. So t hey never answered t he

pr edi cat e quest i on, whi ch Gr ut t er asks: Absent t he use

of r ace, can we gener at e a cr i t i cal mass?

So - - I mean, t hat ' s - - t hat ' s a f l aw we

t hi nk i s i n Gr ut t er . We t hi nk i t ' s necessar y f or t hi s

Cour t t o r est at e t hat pr i nci pl e. Now, whet her t hat - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: That - - t hat ' s a normal

f act t hat we accede t o t wo- cour t hol di ngs on, whet her

t her e i s - - i s or i s not a cr i t i cal mass?

MR. REI N: No. I - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: I t ' s a wei r d ki nd of a

fact .

MR. REI N: And I ' m - - I ' m not sayi ng - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: I t ' s an est i mat i on, i sn' t

i t ? A j udgment ?13



14/98

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MR. REI N: Wel l , J ust i ce Scal i a, t hat i s

cor r ect. And i n addi t i on, t he cour t s di dn' t f i nd

whet her a cr i t i cal mass - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So coul d you t el l me

what a cr i t i cal mass was? I ' m l ooki ng at t he number of

bl acks i n t he Uni ver si t y of Texas syst em. Pr e- Gr ut t er ,

when t he st at e was i ndi sput abl y st i l l segr egat i ng, i t

was 4 per cent . Today, under t he post - Gr ut t er syst em,

i t ' s 6 per cent . The 2 per cent i ncr ease i s enough f or

you, even t hough t he st at e popul at i on i s at 12 per cent ?

Somehow, t hey' ve r eached a cr i t i cal mass wi t h j ust t he

2 per cent i ncr ease?

MR. REI N: Wel l , we don' t bel i eve t hat

demogr aphi cs ar e t he key to underr epr esent at i on of

cri t i cal mass.

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: No - - put t i ng asi de - - I

don' t - - I ' m not goi ng t o quar r el wi t h you t hat , i f

demogr aphi cs al one were bei ng used, I woul d be somewhat

concer ned. But you can' t ser i ousl y suggest t hat

demogr aphi cs ar en' t a f act or t o be l ooked at i n

combi nat i on wi t h how i sol at ed or not i sol at ed your

st udent body i s actual l y r epor t i ng i t sel f t o f eel ?

MR. REI N: Wel l , I t hi nk, i f you st ar t t o

spl i t out subgr oups of mi nor i t i es, you mi st ake, I

t hi nk - - what I t hi nk i s t he pr oper t hr ust of Gr ut t er ,14



15/98

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or at l east ought t o be.

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: I t mi ght be - - i t mi ght

be i nsul t i ng t o some t o be t hr own i nt o a pot .

J USTI CE SCALI A: Why - - why don' t you

ser i ousl y suggest t hat ? Why don' t you ser i ousl y suggest

t hat demogr aphi c - - t hat t he demogr aphi c makeup of t he

st at e has not hi ng to do wi t h whether somebody f eel s

i sol at ed, t hat i f you' r e i n a stat e t hat i s onl y

1 per cent bl ack t hat doesn' t mean t hat you' r e not

i sol at ed, so l ong as t her e' s 1 per cent i n t he cl ass?

MR. REI N: Cer t ai nl y - - r aci al bal ance - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: I wi sh you woul d t ake t hat

posi t i on because i t seems, t o me, r i ght .

MR. REI N: Wel l , J ust i ce Scal i a, r aci al

bal anci ng i s not a per mi ssi bl e i nt er est . And we ar e

const ant l y - - t hi s Cour t has const ant l y hel d not a

per mi ssi bl e i nt er est . And t hat i s somet hi ng we

cer t ai nl y agr ee wi t h.

Tryi ng t o r espond t o J ust i ce Sotomayor

and - - and i n t he f r amewor k of Gr ut t er , what you' r e

l ooki ng at i s, do you - - does t hi s per son, member of a

so- cal l ed under r epr esent ed mi nor i t y - - i t ' s a concept we

don' t necessar i l y accept , but i t ' s Texas' concept - - ar e

t hey i sol at ed? Ar e t hey unabl e t o speak out ?

And I t hi nk we' ve al ways sai d, i f you have a15



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ver y l arge number , as Texas di d i n 2004, when t hey

ost ensi bl y made t he deci si on t o r ei nst i t ut e r ace, t hey

had a 21 per cent admi ss i on per cent age of what t hey

cal l ed the under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es.

They al so had about an 18 per cent admi ss i on

r at i o of Asi an Amer i cans. So on campus, you' r e t al ki ng

about - - about 40 per cent of t he cl ass bei ng mi nor i t i es.

J USTI CE BREYER: Now, but t he t est i s - - t he

t est i s, i n your opi ni on - - I have t o wr i t e t hi s i n t he

opi ni on, you say - - t he pr oper t est of cri t i cal mass i s,

i s t he mi nor i t y i sol at ed, unabl e t o speak out . That ' s

t he t est . And t hat wasn' t i n Gr ut t er or was i n Gr ut t er ?

And i n your opi ni on, i t was i n Gr ut t er ?

MR. REI N: Yes. I t sai d expr essl y i n

Gr ut t er - -

J USTI CE BREYER: I sol at ed. Al l r i ght . And

t he r eason i t was sat i sf i ed t her e and not her e i s?

MR. REI N: I n Gr ut t er , t he Cour t assumed

t hat t he ver y smal l number of admi ssi ons - - mi nor i t y

admi ssi ons, l ooked at as t he whol e - - and i t was l ooked

at as a whol e, onl y as a whol e i n Gr ut t er - - woul d have

yi el ded about 3 or 4 per cent mi nor i t y admi ssi on i n a

cl ass of 350, whi ch means about 12 t o 15 st udent s - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So what ar e you t el l i ng

us i s t he st andar d of cr i t i cal mass? At what poi nt does16



17/98

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a di st r i ct cour t or a uni ver si t y know t hat i t doesn' t

have t o do any more t o equal i ze t he desegr egat i on t hat

has happened i n t hat par t i cul ar st ate over decades, t hat

i t ' s now goi ng t o be st uck at a f i xed number and i t has

t o change i t s r ul es. What ' s t hat f i xed number ?

MR. REI N: We - - i t ' s not our bur den t o

est abl i sh t he number . I t was t he bur den of t he

Uni ver si t y of Texas t o det er mi ne whet her - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Wel l , t hey t ol d - - t hey

t ol d t he di st r i ct cour t . They t ook a st udy of st udent s.

They anal yzed t he composi t i on of t hei r cl asses, and t hey

det er mi ned i n t hei r educat i onal j udgment t hat gr eat er

di ver si t y, j ust as we sai d i n Gr ut t er , i s a goal of

t hei r educat i onal pr ogr am and one t hat i ncl udes

di ver si f yi ng cl asses.

So what more pr oof do you r equi r e?

MR. REI N: Wel l , i f you ar e al l owed t o st at e

al l t he gr ounds t hat need t o be pr oved, you wi l l al ways

pr ove t hem, i n al l f ai r ness, J ust i ce Sot omayor .

The quest i on i s, t hey have - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Wel l , but gi ven i t was

i n t he evi dence, what more do you t hi nk t hey needed? I

t hi nk I hear al l you sayi ng i n your br i ef i s t he

number ' s f i xed now, t hey got enough, no more i s

necessar y.17



18/98

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MR. REI N: What we' r e sayi ng i n t he br i ef

was they wer e gener at i ng, i n f act , a ver y subst ant i al

number of mi nor i t y presence on campus.

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: That ' s enough now.

MR. REI N: And - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: That ' s what you' r e

sayi ng?

MR. REI N: No. And t hat i mmedi at el y t hr ust

upon t hem t he r esponsi bi l i t y, i f t hey want ed t o - - you

know, essent i al l y move away f r om equal t r eatment , t hey

had t o est abl i sh, we have a pur pose, we ar e t r yi ng to

gener at e a cr i t i cal mass of mi nor i t i es t hat ot her wi se

coul d not be achi eved.

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Tel l me - - al l r i ght .

Tel l me what about t hei r use of r ace di d not f i t t he

nar r ow t ai l or i ng - - not t he necessi t y pr ong as you' ve

def i ned i t , but t he nar r ow t ai l or i ng t hat Gr ut t er

r equi r ed? How i s r ace used by t hem i n a way t hat

vi ol at ed t he t er ms of Gr ut t er ?

MR. REI N: And f or t hi s pur pose - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Assumi ng t hat t he need

i s t her e. I know you' r e chal l engi ng t he need.

MR. REI N: Wel l , put - - put asi de whet her

t hi s was necessary and whet her i t was an appr opr i ate

l ast r esor t i n - - i n a quest f or di ver si t y and cr i t i cal18



19/98

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mass because Gr ut t er ' s not wi t hout l i mi t s. But I ' l l put

t hat asi de, and l et me come di r ect l y t o your quest i on.

Fi r st of al l , i f you t hi nk about nar r ow

t ai l or i ng, you can' t t ai l or t o t he unknown. I f you have

no r ange of eval uat i on, i f you have no under st andi ng of

what cr i t i cal mass means, you can' t t ai l or t o i t .

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So you have t o set a

quot a f or cri t i cal mass?

MR. REI N: No. Ther e' s - - t her e' s a huge

di f f er ence, and i t ' s an i mpor t ant one t hat i s not wel l

put out by t he Uni ver si t y of Texas. Havi ng a r ange, a

vi ew as t o what woul d be an appr opr i ate l evel of

comf or t , cri t i cal mass, as def i ned i n Gr ut t er , al l ows

you to eval uat e wher e you are - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So we won' t cal l i t a

quot a, we' l l cal l i t a goal , somet hi ng Gr ut t er sai d you

shoul dn' t have.

MR. REI N: Wel l , J ust i ce Sot omayor , I t hi nk

i t ' s ver y i mpor t ant t o di st i ngui sh bet ween t he oper at i ve

use of t hat r ange. I n ot her wor ds, t hat ' s wher e we ar e,

and we' r e goi ng t o use race unt i l we get t her e, ever y

year , i n consi der at i on of each appl i cat i on, whi ch was a

pr obl em - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Boy, i t sounds awf ul l y

l i ke a quot a t o me, t hat Gr ut t er sai d you shoul d not be19



20/98

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doi ng, t hat you shoul dn' t be set t i ng goal s, t hat you

shoul dn' t be set t i ng quot as. You shoul d be set t i ng an

i ndi vi dual i zed assessment of t he appl i cant s.

Tel l me how t hi s syst em doesn' t do t hat .

MR. REI N: Thi s syst em doesn' t - - I mean,

i t ' s not nar r owl y t ai l or ed because i t doesn' t f i t .

There ar e cer t ai n f or ms of Gr ut t er t hat i t f ol l ows.

I t - -

J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , Mr . Rei n, do you

under st and what t he Uni ver si t y of Texas t hi nks i s t he

def i ni t i on of a cri t i cal mass? Because I don' t .

MR. REI N: I - - wel l , i t si mpl y r ei t er at ed

t he l anguage of Gr ut t er . They have no def i ni t i on. They

can' t f i t - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Mr . - - Mr . Rei n, i t seems

t o me t hat , i n your t al ki ng about cr i t i cal mass, you ar e

r el yi ng ent i r el y on t he 10 per cent i s enough. They

don' t - - t hey got mi nor i t i es t hr ough t he 10 per cent , so

t hey don' t need any more. And I t r i ed t o get you

r i gi dl y t o f ocus on - - f or get t he 10 per cent pl an. Thi s

i s t he ent i r e pl an.

MR. REI N: Wel l , l et me t el l you t hat , i f

you l ook out si de t he t op 10, at t he so- cal l ed AI / PAI

admi t s onl y - - f or get t he t op 10 f or a mi nut e, t hey wer e

gener at i ng appr oxi matel y 15 per cent mi nor i t y admi ssi ons20



21/98

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out si de t he t op 10, whi ch i s i n - - above what t he t arget

was i n Gr ut t er . So t hi s i s not Gr ut t er on i t s f act s.

I t ' s vast l y di f f erent . Thi s i s a - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Because of t he

10 per cent .

MR. REI N: No, i t was - - I ' m t al ki ng about

onl y t he non- t op 10 per cent admi ssi ons. 15 per cent of

t hose wer e so- cal l ed under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es. Thi s

i s wi t hout t he t op 10. Now, t he t op 10 i s al so a maj or

gener at or of admi ssi ons f or under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es.

J USTI CE KENNEDY: And t hi s was - - and t hi s

was bef ore t he adopt i on of t he pl an.

MR. REI N: That i s cor r ect . Those ar e t he

numbers - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Wel l , I ' m sor r y.

Now, I ' m conf used. I t hought t he 15 per cent f i gur e was

t he one t hat was ar r i ved at wi t h t he 10 per cent pl an.

MR. REI N: No. Wi t h t he 10 percent pl an,

i t ' s much hi gher . I n 2004, i t was 21 per cent f or j ust

Hi spani cs and Af r i can Amer i cans, and t hese ar e t he

cat egor i es t hey used. I f you add i n Asi ans, i t was over

38 per cent .

But I ' m i sol at i ng - - i n response t o J ust i ce

Gi nsbur g, I ' m i sol at i ng t o t he non- t op 10 admi ssi ons.

Those ar e over 15 percent i n t hat year , and t hey aver age21



22/98

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ver y cl ose t o t hat over t i me.

So t he - - t he t ot al gener at i on of mi nor i t y

pr esence i s a combi nat i on of t he t wo i n f act , but t he

AI / PAI syst em - - whi ch was adopt ed i n r esponse t o

Hopwood, i t was - - as Texas says, i t was t he f i r st t hi ng

t hey t r i ed t o accommodat e t o thei r l oss of t he abi l i t y

t o use r ace di r ect l y, whi ch came up i n Hopwood.

So t hat was t hei r f i r st r esponse, t o l ook at

a mor e bal anced admi ssi on progr am bet ween Academi c I ndex

and Per sonal Achi evement I ndex. So i t i s not a syst em

whi ch j ust excl udes mi nor i t i es.

J USTI CE KENNEDY: Coul d you comment on

t hi s - - and t hen I hope we can get back t o

J ust i ce Al i t o' s quest i on.

You ar gue t hat t he Uni ver si t y' s

r ace- consci ous admi ssi on pl an i s not necessar y t o

achi eve a di ver se st udent body because i t admi t s so f ew

peopl e - - so f ew mi nor i t i es. And I had t r oubl e wi t h

t hat , readi ng t he br i ef . I sai d, wel l , i f i t ' s so f ew,

t hen what ' s t he pr obl em?

MR. REI N: Wel l , i t ' s a quest i on - -

J USTI CE KENNEDY: Then - - l et ' s assume - -

MR. REI N: Excuse me, J ust i ce Kennedy.

J USTI CE KENNEDY: - - t hat i t r esul t ed i n t he

admi ss i on of many mi nor i t i es. Then you' d come back and22



23/98

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say, oh, wel l , t hi s i s - - t hi s shows t hat we - - we wer e

pr obabl y wr ongl y excl uded. I - -


J USTI CE KENNEDY: I see an i nconsi st ency

her e.


J USTI CE KENNEDY: I s i t - - ar e you sayi ng

t hat you shoul dn' t i mpose t hi s hur t or t hi s i nj ur y,

general l y, f or so l i t t l e benef i t ; i s - - i s that t he

poi nt ?

MR. REI N: Wel l , yes, t hat ' s par t of i t .

The second i s t he quest i on of r easonabl y avai l abl e

al t er nat i ves. I f we t ake Texas at i t s wor d, and i t says

t hey ar e sat i sf i ed, t hey ar e happy goi ng on wi t h the way

t hey appl y race t oday, we t r i ed t o measur e, wel l , what

di f f er ence i s i t maki ng? And coul d you achi eve t he same

t hi ng wi t h a r easonabl y avai l abl e r ace- neut r al

al t er nat i ve?

That ' s a quest i on t hat was asked i n Gr ut t er .

They wer e supposed t o anal yze t hat . They di dn' t l ook at

i t . But i t - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: But i s t he - - t he

r ace- neut r al al t er nat i ve i s t he 10 per cent pl an?

MR. REI N: The r ace- neut r al al t er nat i ve

i ncl udes an ext ensi on of t he 10 per cent pl an because23



24/98

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i t ' s a maj or gener at or of mi nor i t y admi ssi ons. And

r i ght now, t hat r anges at 30 per cent .

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: But you say, and t hat ' s

okay because i t ' s - - i t ' s r ace- neut r al . But i s i t

r eal l y? I mean, t he - - t he onl y r eason t hat t hey

i nst i t ut ed t he 10 per cent pl an was t o i ncr ease mi nor i t y

enr ol l ment .

MR. REI N: Wel l , we say - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: And i t - - and t hat - - t he

onl y way i t wor ks i s i f you have heavi l y separ at ed

school s. And wor se t han t hat , I mean, i f you - - i f you

want t o go t o t he Uni ver si t y of Texas under t he

10 per cent pl an, you go t o t he l ow- per f ormi ng school ,

you don' t t ake chal l engi ng cour ses, because t hat ' s how

you' l l get i nt o t he 10 per cent .

So maybe t he Uni ver si t y i s concerned t hat

t hat i s an i nadequat e way t o deal wi t h i t .

MR. REI N: But , J ust i ce Gi nsbur g, l et - - l et

me say t hat - - t hat a l ot of t hat i s specul at i ve. Ther e

i s not hi ng i n t he r ecor d t o suppor t i t . We don' t know.

They' ve never surveyed t he t op 10 admi t s, t he mi nor i t y

admi t s, t o see, wel l , di d you - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: Excuse me. The 10 percent

pl an i s not i mposed by t he Uni ver si t y. I t ' s not t hei r

opt i on - -24



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J USTI CE SCALI A: - - t o say t hi s - - t hi s i s

not good f or educat i on because peopl e wi l l t ake easy

cour ses. I t ' s i mposed by st at e l aw, i sn' t i t ?


J USTI CE SCALI A: Anybody who i s i n t he t op

10 per cent of any school i n t he st at e get s i nt o the

Uni ver si t y of Texas.

MR. REI N: Yes. And even t he Fi f t h Ci r cui t

sai d you can' t di sr egar d i t s consequences because i t ' s a

mat t er of l aw. I ' m si mpl y sayi ng t hey coul d choose t o

ext end i t beyond wher e i t i s because i t ' s capped t oday

at 75 percent .

But t hat ' s not t he onl y opt i on. That ' s not

t he onl y al t er nat i ve. And - - and cer t ai nl y, one si mpl e

al t er nat i ve i s t hey coul d l ook at t he yi el d, t hat i s,

what per cent age of t he admi t t ed mi nor i t i es are t hey

act ual l y encour agi ng and - - and enr ol l i ng.

J USTI CE BREYER: Or t hey coul d - - t hi s i s

what i s under l yi ng my t hi ng her e. I want t o get you

di r ect l y t o answer i t . I di d l ook up t he f i gur es. And

bef ore Hopwood and the 10 percent pl an, i t l ooked on t he

Af r i can Amer i can si de, t hat i t aver aged about 5 - -

5 per cent per year , r eal l y, pr et t y st eadi l y.

Then af t er Hopwood and 10 per cent , i t went25



26/98

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down a l i t t l e bi t , not a l ot , but i t went down t o about

3 and a hal f percent - - 4 percent , maybe. And t hen t hey

i nt r oduced Gr ut t er , and i t ' s back up t o 5 per cent .

MR. REI N: No - -

J USTI CE BREYER: Okay. Now, i s t hat a l ot ?

I s t hat a l i t t l e? Ther e ar e sever al t housand admi ssi ons

of f i cer s i n t he Uni t ed St at es, sever al t housand

uni ver si t i es, and what i s i t we' r e goi ng t o say her e

t hat wasn' t al r eady sai d i n Gr ut t er , t hat i sn' t goi ng t o

t ake hundr eds or t housands of t hese peopl e and have

Feder al j udges di ct at i ng t he pol i cy of admi ssi on of al l

t hese uni ver si t i es? You see why I ' m l ooki ng f or some

cer t ai nt y?

MR. REI N: But , J ust i ce - -

J USTI CE BREYER: I saw what happened, you

saw t he number s.

Sor r y. Go ahead.

MR. REI N: J ust i ce Br eyer , j ust - - I wi l l

answer your quest i on. I ' d l i ke t o r eser ve a l i t t l e

t i me.

J USTI CE BREYER: You can answer i t l at er , i f

you want , or not answer i t at al l , i f you don' t .

( Laught er . )

MR. REI N: No, I am per f ect l y happy t o - - t o

answer your quest i on.26



27/98

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I t hi nk that t he i ncrease i n

Af r i can Amer i can admi ssi ons t hat you' r e l ooki ng at was

pr e- Gr ut t er . I t - - i t was gener at ed bef or e 2004.

J USTI CE BREYER: Uh- huh.

MR. REI N: So I j ust want t o make cl ear t he

r ecor d doesn' t depend - - t hey don' t depend on race t o do

i t . I t ' s mi ni mal change wi t h t he use of r ace. And

t hat ' s why we say t her e i s an al t er nat i ve, whi ch woul d

ser ve i t about as wel l i n i ncreasi ng yi el d or , i ndeed,

i n r ewei ght i ng t he - - t he PAI , whi ch i s a cri t i cal

el ement her e, so t hat you put more emphasi s on t he

soci oeconomi c f act or s and l ess emphasi s on t he essays,

whi ch are an academi c measur e wi t hi n t he PAI .

So t her e ar e l ot s t hat t hey coul d do - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: So now, we' r e goi ng t o

t el l t he uni ver si t i es how t o r un and how t o wei gh

qual i f i cat i ons, t oo?

MR. REI N: I t ' s not t he j ob of t he Cour t t o

t el l t hem how t o do i t . I t ' s t hei r j ob t o exami ne t he

al t er nat i ves avai l abl e t o them and see i f t hey coul dn' t

achi eve t he same t hi ng.

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Coul d you t el l me,

agai n, how r ace and t hei r use of r ace overwhel ms t hose

ot her f actor s i n t hei r syst em as i t ' s cr eat ed?

MR. REI N: I - - t he quest i on i s not whet her27



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i t over whel ms them. They' r e - - but t hey - - t hey say - -

t hey admi t , i t i s ef f ect i ve. Ther e ar e admi ssi ons t hat

woul d not have t aken pl ace, but f or ; somebody el se woul d

have had t hat pl ace, but f or t he use of r ace.

And I t hi nk, J ust i ce Kennedy, j ust t o answer

your quest i on f ul l y, you have to anal yze race- neut r al

al t er nat i ves. And i f you l ook at Par ent s I nvol ved,

t hat - - t hat was t he cri t i cal quest i on. The - - t he

out comes wer e so smal l , t hat t her e wer e r eadi l y

avai l abl e al t er nat i ves.

J USTI CE KENNEDY: Wel l , per haps you coul d

summar i ze by sayi ng - - by t el l i ng us, f r om your poi nt of

vi ew, t hi s pl an f ai l s st r i ct scrut i ny on one or t wo or

bot h l evel s, A, because t he obj ect i ve i s i nappr opr i at e

or i l l - def i ned, and, B, because of t he i mpl ement at i on i s

def ect i ve. Whi ch or bot h of t hose ar e you ar gui ng?

MR. REI N: We have ar gued bot h, and we

cont i nue t o ar gue bot h. I t i s not a necessary - -

J USTI CE KENNEDY: And i n what r espect does

t hi s pl an f ai l str i ct scr ut i ny under ei t her of t hose - -

under bot h of t hose cat egor i es?

MR. REI N: Okay. Under t he category - - t he

f i r st cat egor y, was i t a necessar y means of pur sui ng a

compel l i ng i nt er est , we don' t bel i eve t hey' ve shown any

necessi t y f or doi ng what t hey wer e doi ng. And28



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cer t ai nl y, i t - - r ace shoul d have been a l ast r esor t .

I t was a f i r st resor t . That ' s, i n a nut shel l , t hat

pr ong of i t . And i n or der - - and t hey f ai l ed i n ever y

r espect .

I f you go t o nar r ow t ai l or i ng, what we ar e

sayi ng i s t hey di dn' t consi der al t er nat i ves, and t hei r

t r eat ment of , as we have poi nt ed out , Asi an Amer i cans

and Hi spani cs makes a - - an i ncompr ehensi bl e

di st i nct i on. They say, we don' t wor r y about Asi ans,

t her e ar e a l ot of Asi ans, i t ' s a demogr aphi c measur e,

whi ch i s a f orbi dden measur e.

They ar e i n excess of t hei r shar e of t he

Texas popul at i on. But i f you ar e t r yi ng t o f i nd

i ndi vi dual comf or t l evel s, i f you ar e br eaki ng i t down

bet ween Af r i can Amer i cans and - - and Hi spani cs, t he - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Counsel , you ar e t he one

who, i n your br i ef , has assumed t hat t hey ar e val ui ng

di f f er ent r aces di f f er ent l y. But Asi an number s have

gone up, under however t hey have st r uct ur ed t hi s PAI .

And as I under st and t hei r posi t i on, r ace i s bal anced

agai nst ot her i ssues l i ke soci oeconomi cs, t he st r engt h

of t he cl asses peopl e t ook. I t ' s never a st andal one.

So even a whi t e st udent , I presume, who goes

t o an - - an ent i r el y bl ack or an ent i r el y Lat i no school ,

who becomes cl ass presi dent , woul d get some poi nt s29



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because he has or she has pr oven t hat t hey f ost er or can

deal i n a di ver se envi r onment . That ' s how I under st ood

t hei r pl an, t hat i t ' s not j ust gi vi ng you a pl us because

of r ace. I t ' s combi ni ng t hat wi t h ot her f act or s.

MR. REI N: Ther e i s a pl us because of r ace.

There ar e many ot her f act or s i n t he deci si on. And mi ght

I say t hat t hi s - - t he whi t e st udent pr esi dent of t he

cl ass i n an et hni cal l y di f f er ent school i s a measur e of

l eader shi p.

Leader shi p i s an i ndependent f act or i n t he

PAI . I t i sn' t - - he i s not get t i ng t hat poi nt because

he i s - - because of hi s r ace; he' s get t i ng t hat poi nt

because of hi s l eader shi p. That r ace- neut r al cri t er i a

coul d work f or anybody.

So r ace i s an i ndependent add- on. I t - - i t

i s somet hi ng t hey can use t o boost t he PAI score, t he

PAS el ement i n any way they l i ke, because t hey say t hey

cont ext ual i ze i t . And we say i t ' s not necessar y, i t ' s

not nar r owl y t ai l or ed, i t i gnor es avai l abl e

al t er nat i ves, i t t r eat s - - gi ves di spar at e t r eat ment t o

Asi an Amer i cans because t hey ar e mi nor i t i es as wel l .

And to t he ext ent i t depends on the

cl assr oom f act or , t her e i s si mpl y no way t o r el at e or

f i t what t hey ar e doi ng t o t he sol ut i on of t he pr obl em

whi ch t hey used as a maj or f oundat i on of t hei r pr oposal ,30



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whi ch i s t he nondi ver se cl assr oom. That - - cert ai nl y,

t her e i s j ust no cor r espondence t her e.

I see my t i me i s up, Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce.

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: We wi l l af f ord you

r ebut t al t i me, si nce our quest i ons have pr event ed you

f rom reservi ng i t .

MR. REI N: Thank you.

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Mr . Gar r e.

ORAL ARGUMENT OF GREGORY G. GARRE

ON BEHALF OF THE RESPONDENTS

MR. GARRE: Thank you, Mr . Chi ef J ust i ce,

and may i t pl ease t he Cour t :

For t wo over r i di ng r easons, t he - - t he

admi ssi ons pl an bef or e you i s Const i t ut i onal under t hi s

Cour t ' s pr ecedent s. Fi r st , i t i s i ndi st i ngui shabl e i n

t er ms of how i t oper at es i n t aki ng r ace i nt o account as

onl y one modest f act or among many f or t he i ndi vi dual i zed

consi der at i ons of appl i cant s i n t hei r t ot al i t y f r om

pl ans t hat t hi s Cour t has uphel d i n Gr ut t er and pl ans

t hat t hi s Cour t appr oved i n Bakke and the Harvar d

pl an - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: I - - I put t hat i n t he

nar r ow t ai l or i ng cat egor y, t hat i t i s nar r owl y t ai l or ed

t he way Gr ut t er di d - - sai d, not t he necessi t y pr ong and

not t he need pr ong - - not t he necessi t y pr ong. I t hi nk31



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most of hi s ar gument has been cent ered on t hat , so - -

MR. GARRE: That ' s r i ght . And so t hat ' s t he

second poi nt I was goi ng t o make, whi ch i s t hat t he

hol i st i c admi ssi ons pr ocess at i ssue her e i s a necessary

count er part t o t he st ate' s t op 10 per cent Law and works

t o syst emat i c - - t o of f set t he syst emat i c dr awbacks of

t hat l aw i n achi evi ng an i nt er est t hat i s i ndi sput abl y

compel l i ng, t he uni ver si t y' s i nt er est i n assembl i ng a

br oadl y di ver se st udent body.

I n t he i nt er est - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Counsel , bef ore - - I

need t o f i gur e out exact l y what t hese number s mean.

Shoul d someone who i s one- quar t er Hi spani c check t he

Hi spani c box or some di f f er ent box?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t here i s a

mul t i r aci al box. St udent s check boxes based on t hei r

own det ermi nat i on. Now, t hi s i s t r ue under t he Common

Appl i cat i on - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Wel l , I suppose a

per son who i s one- quar t er per cent Hi spani c, hi s own

det er mi nat i on, woul d be, I ' m one- quar t er per cent

Hi spani c.

MR. GARRE: Then t hey woul d check t hat box,

Your Honor , as i s t r ue - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: They woul d check32



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t hat box. What about one- ei ght h?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t hat was - - t hey - -

t hey woul d make t hat sel f - det er mi nat i on, Your Honor .

I f - - i f anyone, i n any par t of t he appl i cat i on,

vi ol at ed some honor code t hen t hat coul d come out - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Woul d i t vi ol at e t he

honor code f or someone who i s one- ei ght h Hi spani c and

says, I i dent i f y as Hi spani c, t o check t he Hi spani c box?

MR. GARRE: I don' t t hi nk - - I don' t t hi nk

i t woul d, Your Honor . I don' t t hi nk t hat t hat i ssue

woul d be any di f f er ent t han t he pl an uphel d i n Gr ut t er

or t he Har var d pl an or i n Bakke - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: You don' t check, i n

any way, t he r aci al i dent i f i cat i on?

MR. GARRE: We do not , Your Honor , and no

col l ege i n Amer i ca, t he I vy Leagues, t he Li t t l e I vy

Leagues, t hat I ' m awar e of .

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So how do you know

you have 15 per cent Af r i can Amer i can - - Hi spani c or

15 per cent mi nor i t y?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t he same way t hat

t hat det er mi nat i on i s made i n any ot her si t uat i on, I ' m

awar e of , wher e r ace i s t aken i nt o account - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: You say, " t he same

way. " What i s t hat way?33



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MR. GARRE: Wel l , t he per sons sel f - i dent i f y

on t hat f orm.

J USTI CE SCALI A: Do t hey have t o

sel f - i dent i f y?

MR. GARRE: They do not , Your Honor . Ever y

year peopl e do not , and many of t hose appl i cant s ar e

admi t t ed.

J USTI CE SCALI A: And how do t hey deci de?

You know, i t ' s - - t hey want not j ust a cr i t i cal mass i n

t he school at l ar ge, but cl ass by cl ass? How do t hey

f i gur e out t hat par t i cul ar cl asses don' t have enough?

What - - do they - - somebody wal ks i n t he r oom and l ooks

t hem over t o see who l ooks - - who l ooks Asi an, who l ooks

bl ack, who l ooks Hi spani c? I s t hat - - i s t hat how i t ' s

done?

MR. GARRE: No, Your Honor , and l et me t r y

t o be cl ear on t hi s. The uni ver si t y has never asser t ed

a compel l i ng i nt er est i n any speci f i c di ver si t y i n ever y

si ngl e cl assr oom. I t has si mpl y l ooked t o cl assr oom

di ver si t y as one di mensi on of st udent body di ver si t y.

And t hat - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: I don' t know what you ar e

t al ki ng about . I mean, i t i s ei t her a f actor t hat i s

val i dl y i n t hi s case or i t i sn' t . Now, do t hey l ook t o

i ndi vi dual cl assr oom di ver si t y or not ? And i f so, how34



35/98

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do t hey deci de when cl asses are di ver se?

MR. GARRE: Thi s Cour t i n Gr ut t er , Your

Honor - - and maybe t he most i mpor t ant t hi ng t hat was

sai d dur i ng t he f i r st 30 mi nut es i s, when gi ven an

oppor t uni t y to chal l enge Gr ut t er , I under st ood my f r i end

not t o ask t hi s Cour t t o over r ul e i t .

Thi s Cour t i n Gr ut t er r ecogni zed t he obvi ous

f act t hat t he cl assr oom i s one of t he most i mpor t ant

envi r onment s wher e t he educat i onal benef i t s of di ver si t y

ar e r eal i zed. And so t he Uni ver si t y of Texas, i n

det er mi ni ng whet her or not i t had r eached a cr i t i cal

mass, l ooked t o the cl assr oom, al ong wi t h - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: Fi ne. I ' m aski ng how. How

di d t hey l ook t o t he cl assr oom?

MR. GARRE: Wel l , Your Honor - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: Di d t hey - - di d t hey

r equi r e everybody to check a box or t hey have somebody

f i gur e out , oh, t hi s per son l ooks 1/ 32nd Hi spani c, and

t hat ' s enough?

MR. GARRE: They di d a st udy, Your Honor ,

t hat t ook i nt o account t he same consi der at i ons t hat t hey

di d i n di scussi ng t he enr ol l ment cat egor i es - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: What ki nd of a st udy? What

ki nd of a st udy?

MR. GARRE: Wel l , Your Honor , i t ' s i n t he35



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Suppl ement al J oi nt Appendi x.

J USTI CE SCALI A: Yes. I t doesn' t expl ai n t o

me how t hey go about , cl assr oom by cl assr oom, deci di ng

how many mi nor i t i es t here ar e.

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t her e are st udent

l i st s i n each cl assr oom. The st udent l i st s - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: There ar e st udent

l i st s i n each cl assr oom t hat - - t hat have r ace

i dent i f i ed wi t h t he st udent s?

MR. GARRE: No, no, Your Honor . Of cour se,

each cl assr oom - - t he uni ver si t y knows whi ch st udent s

are t aki ng i t s cl asses. And one can t hen, i f you want

t o gauge di ver si t y i n t he cl assr ooms, go back - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Oh, you go back t o

what t hey checked on t he f or m?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t hi s was par t of

a - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: That ' s a yes or no

quest i on. You go back t o what t hey checked on t hei r

appl i cat i on f or m i n deci di ng whet her Economi cs 201 has a

suf f i ci ent number of Af r i can Amer i cans or Hi spani cs?

MR. GARRE: That i s i nf or mat i on t hat i s

avai l abl e t o t he uni ver si t y, Your Honor , t he r ace of

st udent s, i f t hey' ve checked i t on t he appl i cat i on. But

I do want t o be cl ear on t hi s cl assr oom di ver si t y st udy.36



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Thi s was onl y one of many i nf or mat i on poi nt s t hat t he

uni ver si t y l ooked t o.

J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , on t he cl assr oom

di ver si t y, how does t he non- t op 10 per cent par t of t he

pl an f ur t her cl assr oom di ver si t y? My under st andi ng i s

t hat t he uni ver si t y had over 5, 000 cl asses t hat

qual i f i ed as smal l , and t he t ot al number of Af r i can

Amer i cans and Hi spani cs who were admi t t ed under t he par t

of t he pl an t hat i s chal l enged was j ust a l i t t l e over

200.

So how does t hat - - how does t hat - - how can

t hat possi bl y do mor e t han a t i ny, t i ny amount t o

i ncrease cl assr oom di ver si t y?

MR. GARRE: Wel l , Your Honor , f i r st , I t hi nk

t hat 200 number i s er r oneous. Ther e have been many mor e

mi nor i t y candi dat es - -

J USTI CE ALI TO: Per cl ass?

MR. GARRE: No, not - - not on a per - cl ass

basi s.

J USTI CE ALI TO: I ndi vi dual s i n cl ass.

MR. GARRE: I t hi nk i n l ooki ng at t he

cl assr ooms, Your Honor , what t he uni ver si t y f ound was

shocki ng i sol at i on agai nst - -

J USTI CE ALI TO: How many - - how many non- t op

10 percent members of t he t wo mi nor i t i es at i ssue here37



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are admi t t ed i n each cl ass?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , we di dn' t l ook

speci f i cal l y at t hat det er mi nat i on. What we di d - - i n

ot her wor ds, t o t r y t o f i nd whet her t her e wer e hol i st i c

admi t s or percent age admi t s, we di d concl ude i n 2004 - -

and, agai n, t hi s was bef or e - - we di d t he cl assr oom

st udy bef ore t he pl an at i ssue was adopt ed, and at t hat

t i me, t her e wer e no hol i st i c admi t s t aki ng r ace i nt o

account .

And what we concl uded was t hat we si mpl y - -

i f you l ooked at Af r i can Amer i cans, f or exampl e, i n

90 per cent of t he cl asses of t he most common

par t i ci pat or y si ze - -

J USTI CE ALI TO: I r eal l y don' t underst and

your answer . You know t he t otal number of , l et ' s say,

Af r i can Amer i cans i n an ent er i ng cl ass, r i ght ? Yes or

no?

MR. GARRE: Yes, Your Honor .

J USTI CE ALI TO: And you know t he t ot al

number who were admi t t ed under t he top 10 percent pl an?

MR. GARRE: We do, Your Honor . But , agai n,

at t he t i me - -

J USTI CE ALI TO: I f you subt r act A f r om B,

you' l l get C, r i ght ?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , at t he t i me - -38



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J USTI CE ALI TO: And what i s t he val ue of C

per cl ass?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , I don' t know t he

answer t o t hat quest i on, and l et me t r y t o expl ai n why

t he uni ver si t y di dn' t l ook speci f i cal l y at - - t o t hat .

Because at t he t i me t hat t he cl assr oom di ver si t y st udy

was conduct ed, i t was bef or e t he hol i st i c admi ssi ons

pr ocess at i ssue here was adopt ed i n 2003- 2004.

And so t hat determi nat i on woul dn' t have been

as i mpor t ant as j ust f i ndi ng out ar e Af r i can Amer i cans

or Hi spani cs, under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es, pr esent at

t he uni ver si t y i n such number s t hat we ar e not

exper i enci ng r aci al - - r aci al i sol at i on i n t he

cl assr oom.

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: What i s t hat number ?

What i s t he cr i t i cal mass of Af r i can Amer i cans and

Hi spani cs at t he uni ver si t y t hat you ar e wor ki ng t oward?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , we don' t have one.

And - - and t hi s Cour t i n Gr ut t er - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So how ar e we

supposed t o t el l whet her t hi s pl an i s nar r owl y t ai l or ed

t o t hat goal ?

MR. GARRE: To l ook t o t he same cr i t er i a of

t hi s Cour t i n Gr ut t er . Thi s Cour t i n Gr ut t er

speci f i cal l y rej ect ed t he not i on t hat you coul d come up39



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wi t h a f i xed per cent age. Now - -

J USTI CE ALI TO: Now, does cr i t i cal mass var y

f r om - - f r om gr oup t o gr oup? Does i t var y f r om st at e t o

state?

MR. GARRE: I t cer t ai nl y i s cont ext ual . I

t hi nk i t coul d var y, Your Honor . I t hi nk - - l et me

f i r st say t hat my f r i ends have - - t hr oughout t hi s

l i t i gat i on, not i n t hi s Cour t , asser t ed 20 per cent as a

cr i t i cal mass, and t hat ' s l umpi ng t oget her di f f er ent

mi nor i t y gr oups.

J USTI CE ALI TO: No. But coul d you answer my

quest i on? What does t he Uni ver si t y of Texas - - t he

Uni ver si t y of Texas t hi nk about t hose quest i ons?

MR. GARRE: We - -

J USTI CE ALI TO: I s t he cr i t i cal mass f or t he

Uni ver si t y of Texas dependent on t he br eakdown of t he

popul at i on of Texas?

MR. GARRE: No, i t ' s not at al l .

J USTI CE ALI TO: I t ' s not .

MR. GARRE: I t ' s not at al l . I t ' s l ooki ng

t o - - t o t he educat i onal benef i t s of di ver si t y on

campus, and I t hi nk we act ual l y agree on what t hat means

and what Gr ut t er sai d i t meant , i n t er ms of - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Mr . Gar r e, coul d you

expl ai n - - I t hi nk you wer e t r yi ng t o bef or e - - what40



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seems t o me t he cr i t i cal quest i on i n t hi s case: Why

di dn' t t he 10 per cent sol ut i on suf f i ce? Ther e wer e a

subst ant i al number of mi nor i t y member s admi t t ed as a

r esul t of t he 10 per cent sol ut i on. Why wasn' t t hat

enough t o achi eve di ver si t y?

MR. GARRE: Wel l , l et me make a coupl e of

poi nt s, Your Honor . Fi r st , i f you j ust l ooked at t he

number s - - we don' t t hi nk i t ' s t he number s, but i f you

l ooked at t he number s, af t er 7 year s, r aci al di ver si t y

among t hese gr oups at t he Uni ver si t y of Texas had

r emai ned st agnant or worse. 2002, Af r i can Amer i can

enr ol l ment had act ual l y dr opped t o 3 per cent . That ' s

one par t of i t .

The ot her par t of i t i s, i f you l ook at t he

admi ssi ons under t he top 10 per cent pl an, t aki ng t he - -

t he t op 10 per cent of a r aci al l y i dent i f i abl e hi gh

school may get you di ver si t y t hat l ooks okay on paper ,

but i t doesn' t guar ant ee you di ver si t y t hat pr oduces

educat i onal benef i t s on campus. And t hat ' s one of t he

consi der at i ons t hat t he uni ver si t y t ook i nt o account as

wel l .

J USTI CE SCALI A: I don' t under st and t hat .

Why? Why - - why doesn' t i t ?

MR. GARRE: Because, Your Honor , as i s t r ue

f or any gr oup - - and t he Har var d pl an t hat t hi s Cour t41



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appr oved i n Bakke speci f i cal l y r ecogni zed t hi s, you

woul d want r epr esent at i ves and di f f er ent vi ewpoi nt s f r om

i ndi vi dual s wi t hi n the same - - t he same raci al gr oup,

j ust as you woul d f r om i ndi vi dual s out si de of t hat .

J USTI CE SCALI A: What ki nd of vi ewpoi nt s? I

mean, ar e t hey pol i t i cal vi ewpoi nt s?

MR. GARRE: Wel l , anyone' s exper i ences,

wher e t hey gr ew up, t he si t uat i ons t hat t hey - - t hat

t hey exper i ence i n t hei r l i ves ar e goi ng t o af f ect t hei r

vi ewpoi nt s.

J USTI CE SCALI A: But t hi s has not hi ng t o do

wi t h, wi t h r aci al di ver si t y. I mean, you' r e t al ki ng

about somethi ng el se.

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , I t hi nk i t di r ect l y

i mpact s t he educat i onal benef i t s of di ver si t y i n t hi s

sense, t hat t he mi nor i t y candi date who has shown t hat - -

t hat he or she has succeeded i n an i nt egr ated

envi r onment , has shown l eadershi p, communi t y servi ce,

t he ot her f act or s t hat we l ooked at i n hol i st i c r evi ew,

i s pr eci sel y t he ki nd of candi dat e t hat ' s goi ng t o

come - - come on campus, hel p t o break down raci al

bar r i er s, wor k acr oss raci al l i nes, di spel - -

st er eot ypes - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: Al so, t he ki nd t hat i s

l i kel y t o be i ncl uded wi t hi n t he 10 per cent r ul e. And,42



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i nci dent al l y, when - - when was t he 10 per cent r ul e

adopt ed?

MR. GARRE: 1998, Your Honor .

But wi t h r espect t o your - - your f act ual

poi nt , t hat ' s absol ut el y wr ong, Your Honor . I f you l ook

at t he admi ss i ons dat a that we ci t e on page 34 of our

br i ef , i t shows t he br eakdown of appl i cant s under t he

hol i st i c pl an and t he per cent age pl an.

And I don' t t hi nk i t ' s been ser i ousl y

di sput ed i n t hi s - - t hi s case t o t hi s poi nt t hat ,

al t hough the per cent age pl an cer t ai nl y hel ps wi t h

mi nor i t y admi ssi ons, by and l ar ge, t he - - t he mi nor i t i es

who are admi t t ed t end t o come f r om segregat ed,

r aci al l y- i dent i f i abl e school s .

J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , I t hought t hat t he

whol e pur pose of af f i r mat i ve act i on was t o hel p st udent s

who come f r om under pr i vi l eged backgr ounds, but you make

a ver y di f f er ent ar gument t hat I don' t t hi nk I ' ve ever

seen bef ore.

The top 10 per cent pl an admi t s l ot s of

Af r i can Amer i cans - - l ot s of Hi spani cs and a f ai r number

of Af r i can Amer i cans. But you say, wel l , i t ' s - - i t ' s

f aul t y because i t doesn' t admi t enough Af r i can Amer i cans

and Hi spani cs who come f r om pr i vi l eged backgr ounds. And

you speci f i cal l y have the exampl e of t he chi l d of43



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successf ul pr of essi onal s i n Dal l as.

Now, t hat ' s - - t hat ' s your ar gument ? I f you

have - - you have an appl i cant whose par ent s are - - l et ' s

say t hey' r e - - one of t hem i s a par t ner i n your l aw f i r m

i n Texas, anot her one i s a par t - - i s anot her cor por at e

l awyer . They have i ncome t hat put s t hem i n t he t op

1 per cent of ear ner s i n t he count r y, and t hey have - -

par ent s both have graduat e degrees.

They deser ve a l eg- up agai nst , l et ' s say, an

Asi an or a whi t e appl i cant whose parent s are absol ut el y

aver age i n t erms of educat i on and i ncome?

MR. GARRE: No, Your Honor . And l et me - -

l et me answer t he quest i on. Fi r st of al l , t he exampl e

comes al most word f or word f r om t he Harvar d pl an t hat

t hi s Cour t appr oved i n Gr ut t er and t hat J ust i ce Powel l

hel d out i n Bakke.

J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , how can t he answer t o

t hat quest i on be no, because bei ng an Af r i can Amer i can

or bei ng a Hi spani c i s a pl us f act or .

MR. GARRE: Because, Your Honor , our poi nt

i s, i s t hat we want mi nor i t i es f r om di f f er ent

backgr ounds. We go out of our way t o r ecr ui t mi nor i t i es

f r om di sadvant aged backgr ounds.

J USTI CE KENNEDY: So what you' r e sayi ng i s

t hat what count s i s r ace above al l ?44



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backgr ound or perspect i ve, you woul d want peopl e f r om

di f f er ent per spect i ves.

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Counsel - -

MR. GARRE: And t hat ' s - - t hat ' s t he

i nt er est s t hat we' r e di scussi ng her e. I t ' s t he

i nt er est s t hat - - t hat t he Har var d pl an speci f i cal l y

adopt s and l ays out - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: I under st and my j ob,

under our pr ecedent s, t o det er mi ne i f your use of r ace

i s nar r owl y t ai l or ed t o a compel l i ng i nt er est . The

compel l i ng i nt er est you i dent i f y i s at t ai ni ng a cri t i cal

mass of mi nor i t y st udent s at t he Uni ver si t y of Texas,

but you won' t t el l me what t he cr i t i cal mass i s. How am

I supposed t o do t he j ob t hat our pr ecedent s say I

shoul d do?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , what - - what t hi s

Cour t ' s pr ecedent s say i s a cr i t i cal mass i s an

envi r onment i n whi ch st udent s of under r epr esent ed - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: I know what you say,

but when wi l l we know t hat you' ve r eached a cr i t i cal

mass?

MR. GARRE: Wel l - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Gr ut t er sai d t here

has t o be a l ogi cal end poi nt t o your use of r ace. What

i s t he l ogi cal end poi nt ? When wi l l I know t hat you' ve46



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r eached a cr i t i cal mass?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t hi s quest i on, of

cour se, i mpl i cat es Gr ut t er i t sel f . And, agai n, I

under st ood my f r i end not t o chal l enge t hat . They

haven' t chal l enged t hat di ver si t y i s a compel l i ng

i nt erest at al l .

What - - what we l ook t o, and we t hi nk t hat

cour t s can r evi ew t hi s det er mi nat i on, one, we l ook t o

f eedback di r ect l y f r om st udent s about r aci al i sol at i on

t hat t hey exper i ence. Do t hey f eel l i ke spokesper sons

f or t hei r r ace.

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So, what , you

conduct a sur vey and ask st udent s i f t hey f eel r aci al l y

i sol at ed?

MR. GARRE: That ' s one of t he t hi ngs we

l ooked at .

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: And t hat ' s t he basi s

f or our Const i t ut i onal det er mi nat i on?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , t hat ' s one of t he

t hi ngs t hat we l ooked at .

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Okay. What ar e t he

ot her s?

MR. GARRE: Anot her i s t hat we di d l ook t o

enr ol l ment dat a, whi ch showed, f or exampl e, among

Af r i can Amer i cans, t hat Af r i can Amer i can enr ol l ment at47



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t he Uni ver si t y of Texas dropped t o 3 per cent i n 2002

under t he percent age pl an.

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: At what l evel wi l l

i t sat i sf y t he cr i t i cal mass?

MR. GARRE: Wel l , I t hi nk we al l agr ee t hat

3 per cent i s not a cri t i cal mass. I t ' s wel l beyond

t hat .

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: Yes, but at what

l evel wi l l i t sat i sf y t he r equi r ement of cri t i cal mass?

MR. GARRE: When we have an envi r onment i n

whi ch Af r i can Amer i cans do not - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: When - - how am I

supposed t o deci de whet her you have an envi r onment

wi t hi n par t i cul ar mi nor i t i es who don' t f eel i sol at ed?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , par t of t hi s i s a - -

i s a j udgment t hat t he admi n - - t he educators are goi ng

t o make, but you woul d l ook t o t he same cr i t er i a - -

CHI EF J USTI CE ROBERTS: So, I see - - when

you t el l me, t hat ' s good enough.

MR. GARRE: No, Your Honor , not at al l . You

woul d l ook t o t he cr i t er i a t hat we l ooked at , t he

enr ol l ment dat a, t he f eedback f r om t he st udent s. We

al so t ook i nt o account di ver si t y i n t he cl assr oom. We

t ook i nt o account t he r aci al cl i mat e on campus.

J USTI CE ALI TO: But woul d 3 percent be48



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enough i n New Mexi co, your border i ng st at e, where the

Af r i can Amer i can popul at i on i s around 2 per cent ?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , I don' t t hi nk i t

woul d. I mean, our concept t o cr i t i cal mass i sn' t t i ed

t o demogr aphi c. I t ' s undi sput ed i n t hi s case t hat we

are not pur sui ng any demogr aphi c goal . That ' s on page

138 of t he J oi nt Appendi x.

Al l of - - I t hi nk many key f act s ar e

undi sput ed her e. I t ' s undi sput ed t hat r ace i s onl y a

modest f act or . I t ' s undi sput ed t hat we' r e t aki ng r ace

i nt o account onl y to consi der i ndi vi dual s i n t hei r

t ot al i t y.

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Mr . Gar r e, I t hi nk t hat

t he i ssue t hat my col l eagues are aski ng i s, at what

poi nt and when do we st op def er r i ng to t he Uni ver si t y' s

j udgment t hat r ace i s st i l l necessar y? That ' s t he

bot t om l i ne of t hi s case. And you' r e sayi ng, and I

t hi nk r i ght l y because of our cases, t hat you can' t set a

quota, because t hat ' s what our cases say you can' t do.

So i f we' r e not goi ng t o set a quot a, what

do you t hi nk i s t he st andard we appl y t o make a

j udgment?

MR. GARRE: I t hi nk t he st andard you woul d

appl y i s t he one set f or t h i n Gr ut t er , and i t comes f r om

J ust i ce Powel l ' s opi ni on i n Bakke, t hat you woul d l ook49



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t o whether or not t he Uni ver si t y reached an envi r onment

i n whi ch member s of under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es, Af r i can

Amer i cans and Hi spani cs, do not f eel l i ke spokesper sons

f or t hei r r ace, members - - an envi r onment where

cr oss- r aci al under st andi ng i s pr omoted, an envi r onment

wher e t he benef i t - - educat i onal benef i t s of di ver si t y

ar e r eal i zed.

And t he r eason why t he Uni ver si t y of Texas

concl uded t hat t hat envi r onment was not met here, i t

l ai d out i n sever al di f f er ent i nf or mat i on poi nt s t hat

t hi s Cour t can r evi ew - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: But t hat hol ds f or onl y - -

onl y another what , 16 years, r i ght ? Si xt een more years,

and you' r e goi ng t o cal l i t al l of f .

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , we don' t r ead

Gr ut t er as est abl i shi ng t hat ki nd of t i me cl ock. We ar e

l ooki ng at t hi s - -

J USTI CE SCALI A: But you' r e appeal i ng t o

Gr ut t er , and t hat ' s what i t sai d.

MR. GARRE: Wel l , Your Honor , Gr ut t er i s

t hi s Cour t ' s pr ecedence. We' r e gui ded by i t her e. At

l east t he advocat es are. And - - and what we woul d l ook

t o i s once - - we' r e l ooki ng at t hi s ever y year , we' r e

l ooki ng at i t caref ul l y. And once we r each t hat poi nt ,

of cour se, we' r e goi ng t o st op.50



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But we al so t ake - -

J USTI CE SOTOMAYOR: Mr . - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Mr . Gar r e. Mr . Gar r e.

J USTI CE SCALI A: Some of t he st uf f t hat

Gr ut t er says - - some of t he st uf f t hat Gr ut t er says you

agr ee wi t h, some of t he st uf f t hat i t says you don' t

agr ee wi t h.

MR. GARRE: Wel l , I don' t know t hat I ' ve

di sagr eed wi t h anyt hi ng i t sai d. I t - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Mr . Gar r e, bef or e your

t i me i s - - r uns out , t he ot her poi nt t hat I ' d l i ke you

t o answer i s t he ar gument based on Par ent s I nvol ved,

t hat t he game i s j ust t oo smal l t o war r ant usi ng a

raci al cr i t er i a.

MR. GARRE: Your Honor - -

J USTI CE GI NSBURG: Once you have t he

10 per cent , you don' t need mor e. So how do you answer

t he ar gument of i t bei ng t oo smal l ?

MR. GARRE: Fi r st I ' d poi nt t o my f r i end' s

own concessi ons, t hat t he consi der at i on of r ace has

i ncreased r aci al di ver si t y at Hi spani c and hel ps wi t h

mi nor i t y enr ol l ment . That ' s on page 138 of t he J oi nt

Appendi x.

Secondl y, I ' d poi nt t o t he f act t hat Af r i can

Amer i can and Hi spani cs' admi ssi ons di d i ncr ease.51



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Af r i can Amer i can admi ssi ons doubl ed f r om t he per i od of

2002 t o 2004. So t hi s has had a r eal i mpor t ant i mpact

on di ver si t y at t he Uni ver si t y of Texas.

J USTI CE ALI TO: Wel l , i n t er ms of di ver si t y,

how do you j ust i f y l umpi ng t oget her al l Asi an Amer i cans?

Do you t hi nk - - do you have a cr i t i cal mass of Fi l i pi no

Amer i cans? Cambodi an Amer i cans - -

MR. GARRE: Your Honor - -

J USTI CE ALI TO: - - Cambodi an Amer i cans?

MR. GARRE: - - t he common f orm t hat ' s used

has Asi an Amer i can, but al so, next t o t hat , has a f or m

t hat says count r y of or i gi n wher e t hat can be spel l ed

out .

J USTI CE ALI TO: But do you have a cr i t i cal

mass as t o al l t he subgr oups t hat f al l wi t hi n t hi s

enor mous gr oup of Asi an Amer i cans?

MR. GARRE: Your Honor , we' ve l ooked t o

whether or not we have a cr i t i cal mass of

under r epr esent ed mi nor i t i es, whi ch i s pr eci sel y what t he

Gr ut t er deci si on

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